The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop" (2024)

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #26 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Wed 26 Sep 07 11:01

 matisse--well, i'm not sure what i can add...you were there! but ithink the process you raise--the act of turning a blackened advertisingposter space into art--is really symbolic. here you had young artistslike keith haring and the taggers appropriating these places saved forcommercialism and turning them into art. from advertisem*nts forconsumer goods into advertisem*nts for the self. (the connectionbetween graffitiists and pop art was clear to people like basquiat andfab 5 freddy from jump, not to mention mailer and warhol.)in a larger sense, the youth that are closed out from the system bythe politics of abandonment are, in another sense, set free to returnwith their art--whether on bus stops, walls, or subway cars. theyappropriate public spaces with their negated selves. ok ok, this is all beginning to sound a little too post-moderny. but there are real life consequences. i think the current state oforange high-alert readiness against young people--from curfews toanti-cruising ordinances to sweep ordinances to, ack, 'kidnation'--this notion that we need to be protecting ourselves from wildyouth, and that they need to be protected from themselves, goes back tothe war on graffiti begun by nyc mayor john lindsay in 1972. this makes me want to steal a quote from 'the wire' about the 'the war on drugs', which i think is not unlike the 'war on graffiti' or the'war on youth':carver: 'girl you can't even call this sh*t a war.'kima: 'why not?'carver: 'wars end.'here's another quote from nyc graf writer EWOK's words (in this greatbook of graf photos called 'broken windows' by jim & karla murray): 'When you push something down, it's going to pop up somewhere else.It's just natural progression.' 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #27 of 49: looming tricycle menace (anna) Wed 26 Sep 07 11:50

 (the NYT reported on the hearings that Jeff is referring to in #24, here:http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/washington/26rap.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1190831695-O0Wx9yvH+T1SYIlGM0Mctw, or http://tinyurl.com/2r6ktd)i think it's very important that hip hop be free to discuss the reality ofartists' lives. many of these artists come from economically and sociallymarginalized groups, and their point of view is valuable, even if it'suncomfortable to hear. that said, i get real tired of hearing about "bitches"and "hoes". so i do have my own personal boundary, but i still think weshould as a society respect that others have differing boundaries.it's interesting how the "underground" of hip hop has ended up becoming amostly white audience, and that this seems to be the doing of marketingdepts at major record labels. there must've been some right timing thereas well, since it wouldn't have taken off unless the moment was ripe for it.one odd thing that i realized recently is that 99% of the dub djs i've seenphotos of are white, playing mostly black artists. has music become color-blind or is it that music is being co-opted from the musicians into the handsof those more culturally powerful, or both or neither? 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #28 of 49: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Thu 27 Sep 07 08:21

 I wonder how hip-hop culture does or might translate into political andeconomic power. There is no assurance at all that it will - andhistorically, not every cultural change has resulted in increased power forthe group(s) that the change came from. In fact, just off the top of myhead, I think maybe cultural innovations may have nothing at all to do withincreases in political and economic power. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #29 of 49: Gail Williams (gail) Thu 27 Sep 07 10:21

 If it's generational, then as a generation ages an illusion unfolds. It looks like the cultural style comes into power since members of the generation gains power and relative wealth. But looking at the late 60s rock used for insurance ad soundtracks, etc, it may not be an anthem for any structural change. A handful of stars in thenew styles and genres become wealthy and get keys to the doors of power, but may not know how to use them. It's not easy to storm the thrownin the modern world. I wonder sometimes how brilliant creative amazing expression could ever be more than decoration or fashion changes, no matter how enriching theprocess. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #30 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Thu 27 Sep 07 13:59

 anna, in regards to your point about having a line that you draw, ithink it's important to note that many of us have drawn such lines foryears. the ugly debate that don imus raised and the grassroots move todump the guy represented, i think, a crystallization of a sense of"enough is enough". one thing i think is really important to point outis that the hip-hop hearings this time around--as opposed to the onesc. delores tucker and carole moseley-braun had 13 years ago--featuredprominent voices from hip-hop who were also critical. here's mycolleague lisa fa*ger's testimony, for instance, who just captured abouteverything i've been feeling:http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=15116190&blogID=313595133her bottom line: we don't blame the artists, we blame the industry.i also wanted to post this, by a white maryland politician who is alsoa hip-hop parent:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702048.html?nav=hcmodulei think it may provide a provocative answer to your provocativequestion. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #31 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Thu 27 Sep 07 14:13

 matisse--you know i consider myself an idealist and a hip-hopactivist, so i'm a bit biased on your question. but certainly culturalpower, economic power, and political power are not all the same things.they are all dialectical in fact. let's leave aside economic power fornow...one of the things i've been bullish on in recent years has been theincreasing efforts of hip-hoppers to translate their cultural cachetinto political power. there are some intriguing results. in 2004, i was part of two efforts--the national hip-hop politicalconvention and the league of pissed off voters (now simply, the leagueof young voters)--that tried to organize hip-hoppers to vote. you mayremember there were also high-profile efforts from russell simmons anddiddy to do the same. media barely reported this, but there was a surge of youth votingunseen since the voting age had been lowered to 18 in 1972. and what'smore interesting is that of the 4 million new voters between the agesof 18 and 29, more than half were african american or latino. now i can safely say that the democratic party and the republicanparty didn't organize those folks to get to the polls. in fact, if theyhad tried, they might have been frustrated by young people'sskepticism. "why should i vote, what have you done for me lately?" butmillions of hip-hoppers organized themselves, and although it wasn'treported, it made a difference.btw those increases held for 2006, in comparison to 2002 the lastoff-presidential year. and i've covered barack obama for vibe magazineand i was amazed to find hundreds of enthusiastic supporters under theage of 18 at the rallies. it might be argued that the catalytic grassroots work of 2004 is justas important as the ongoing crises we face--the war, rising urbanviolence, education, etc.--in getting this new generation of youngpeople interested again in electoral politics, after three decades ofwhat others have called apathy, but what i've called militantskepticism. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #32 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Thu 27 Sep 07 14:17

 gail, i think the last post kind of said what i wanted to reply toyou, but i wanted to add that i definitely hear you about the march ofstylistic change. one of the things i have been interested in my workhas been to connect changes in the world of culture with changes in the"material world" (not madonna's, but maybe marx's, i suppose). here's a question that i have for all of you: do you think the arc ofcultural change always bends toward arch commercialism? i'd love to hear your thoughts. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #33 of 49: looming tricycle menace (anna) Thu 27 Sep 07 14:21

 well, i read both of those interesting essays. the whole idea that whitepeople comfortably consume rap/hip hop because it's not talking about doingcrimes in white neighborhoods, to white people, or dissing white women, isgood to have out in the open, on the table. let's talk about personalresponsibility here! i realize, of course, that i'm out of the loop on alot of these cultural discussions, and may be coming to the discussion kindof late. i guess i'm sort of glad that i was never so unaware that i wasokay with the "bitches and hos" stuff, i figured it applied to all women,and that was not, and is not, okay with me. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #34 of 49: looming tricycle menace (anna) Thu 27 Sep 07 14:24

 2 slips!will consider your question, Jeff. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #35 of 49: Gail Williams (gail) Thu 27 Sep 07 15:20

 What a great question: Do you think the arc of cultural change always bends toward arch commercialism?Thinking about this...Other forces -- including religion, revolution, state control and the forces of literacy & science have had impacts on spreading and shapingmass culture too at times. In a sense, cultural change is a pretty new thing, and so is the overpowering force of modern commericialism.Maybe a better statement would be that attention is valuable, and when there is a sweeping change in patterns of attention, some element of greed will always be triggered. Can it be resisted? The innoculation is for the cultural change to be anticommericial, anonymous, small, disaggregated, free, "worthless," local... But then it can't use the powerful channels of commericialism to spread itself. So that's the tension. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #36 of 49: Gail Williams (gail) Thu 27 Sep 07 15:23

 And I say greed, but obviously for an individual with the choice of povertyor big commericial success, greed is a mischaracterization of the need tosurvive. It can become impossible to resist and hard to steer. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #37 of 49: David Wilson (dlwilson) Thu 27 Sep 07 21:19

 In popular music, the technology always seems to lead cultural changesin the music.Part of the answer concerns types of markets. For example rock n'rollwas race music that was produced for local and regional markets. Thenational market, represented by the major recording companies at firstshunned rock n' roll. The independents catered to the local/regionalmarkets and the audience forced the majors to take notice because ofcrossover hits. Didn't something similar happen to the development ofhip-hop? Another part of the answer has to do with commodification ofthe music and commodity fetishism that grows up around such products. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #38 of 49: Gail Williams (gail) Fri 28 Sep 07 14:05

 Do you mean distribution technology, not musical intruments there in your first line, David? That's an interesting idea.Is that technology trendline about access to urban culture for those from the burbs and beyond? 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #39 of 49: David Wilson (dlwilson) Fri 28 Sep 07 15:01

 I meant distribution technology.When phonograph records first came out, the song publishers thoughtthat they would lose out. When radio first came out the record labelsthought they would lose out. When cassette technology came along, samething. Compact disks were a boon to the record labels. They ate atthe trough for years while reissuing music on lp to cd. Now digitaltechnology is making a qualitative and quantative change in how musicis developed, produced, and distributed. In each instance thedinosaurs have to be beatin-up before they realize that the technologyis actually good for their bottom lines.I don't know how hip hop music and culture made it out to the suburbsto a crossover market of young teenaged boys and girls. That is aquestion for Jeff.But it seems to me that the marketing machines of mass mediacorporations still had some moves, and they were able to adapt,harness, commodify, and sell hip hop. Unlike rock n' roll they hadlearned not to dismiss out-of-hand cult or underground phenomenapercolating in local and regional markets. I think it was generationalin that the record executives were open to it, and they had thehistorical example of rock n' roll to refer back to. My understanding of hip hop music is that the first productions werehomemade and used primitive technology that had been tinkered togetherin Jamaican studios and out in the public performances of soundsystems. If you add the ease of reproduction (mixtapes and downloading) and yougive the kids the keys to the production kingdom, you have enabledlocal happenings to surface.All those big dogs had to do then is bottle it and sell it. Art andquality are another thing though. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #40 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Sat 29 Sep 07 22:11

 Thank you all for these really thought-provoking replies. I'm going toapologize now for the radio silence. Since Friday I've been in Miamito participate in the Miami Light Project's Project Hip-Hop, an amazingweekend of hip-hop theatre and performances. I'll get back to postingregularly beginning Monday, but I did want to let anyone in theMiami/Dade area to know that I'll be speaking Sunday at 11am at Booksand Books on Lincoln Road in South Beach on my two books. Please dropby and introduce yourself if you do come through! 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #41 of 49: What is going to amuse our bouches now? (bumbaugh) Sun 30 Sep 07 12:05

 . . . and if you're following this conversation on the Interwebs and have a question for Jeff or some observations you would like to contribute, e-mail us at inkwell@well.com and we can post for you (or, become a Well member http://www.well.com/ and *you* can post for you) 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #42 of 49: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 30 Sep 07 15:06

 Sounds like quite a festival. How'd the reading go? And who goes to your readings... what do they tend to ask about? 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #43 of 49: Lisa Harris (lrph) Sun 30 Sep 07 15:31

 Wish I could have come to see you in Miami,. Jeff. Unfortunately I was inCentral Florida for the weekend. Hope it all went well. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #44 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Mon 1 Oct 07 11:52

 hey everyone,i'm back from miami, which was a wonderful experience. i was out therefor an annual festival put together by the miami light project calledproject hip-hop that features some of the best national hip-hoptheater, dance, film, and this year, a brief lecture from yours truly. i really love these kinds of events because they give a chance forpeople to gather and really debate and discuss aesthetic and politicalissues, and just to kick it and enjoy some great art. the headlinerthis year was the bronx's fine, nationally acclaimed theater company,universes, who did a stunning showcase of their unique mix of rap,poetry, and music. if you can catch them on the road--they're in texasthis week i believe--they are one of the most exciting companiesaround. but a lot of the fun comes from the multigenerational mix that comestogether--children, community leaders, young and old artists,journalists, activists, and just fans of every possible background youcan imagine. after universes' performance, we all spilled out ontolincoln road and had long discussions into the night. that's thehip-hop i've come to love. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #45 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Mon 1 Oct 07 12:14

 gail, david and anna, thanks for stirring up the synapses. i've beenstruggling with the question of whether all countercultural movementsare meant to become commercialized and co-opted. this is a popular lineamong some intellectuals i admire: naomi klein, thomas frank, josephheath and andrew potter. on the other side are colleagues like danyelsmith, greg tate, joan morgan, and even the novelist william gibson,who seem to me to try to stake out a principled engagement withcountercultures.i don't consider myself naive or innocent--i'm published by majorhouses, my friends work with major labels, i've worked for some of thecorporations i criticize. but there's also a part of me that, foxmulder-like, just wants to *believe*. and i take solace in w.e.b.dubois's insights about 'double consciousness'. it would beintellectually dishonest of me to act like the purist i wanted to beback when i was in my 20s...ok, let's go to the question of technology. i am on board with david'sreading of the music industry and technology, and i suspect thatthere's a fantastic conversation to be had here about whether theindustry has turned into a dinosaur obsolescence by being soreactionary to new technology. what do you all think?and just one last thought: with regards to the point that i think gailwas alluding to in terms of personal technology, lots of times thequestion of race and technology has been framed in terms of the digitaldivide. i would never deny that the digital divide is an importantissue to address. but i do want to note that hip-hop has been anamazing example of the opposite trend--socially disenfranchisedpopulations exploring the implications of new technologies and makingthem stylish, from spraypaint to sound mixers to sneaker soles topagers to samplers to cell phones to blogs long before they reach themainstream... 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #46 of 49: Gail Williams (gail) Mon 1 Oct 07 18:54

 Years ago i did a college paper on adoption of new ideas and focussed onthe dissemination of fashion information in 19th century America. (A fewreal patterns from Paris by boat, the rise of mail order catalogs withpictures, all kinds of fun things to consider as the new way to look good would slowly spread into the interior, reinterpretted by local seamstresses, etc.)In the research for that little paper, I picked up some very interesting texts about how style is transmitted. The latest tech, be it railroads or text messages, is sure to be part of the vector. Seems to me thathasn't changed. A couple of ideas caught my attention. - An author who asserted that the court of Marie Antoinette *invented* the fashion cycle with its arch disdain for last year's style, and that since then, fasion change has served as a placibo for revolution. Not so effectively for Marie, but stronger since then. (We look radical compared to people x years ago, so we have evolved and rebelled!) - Carnaby Street fashion in the 60s, just pre-hippie era in London, changed the entire clothing world. Top-down designer ideas were the way of the world until then. At that time, London designers started looking at kids on the street for fashion ideas. That has not stopped since. That might mean that the "co-opting" cycle kicked in in the designer clothes world at that time. It had kicked in to some degree in the music world back inthe jazz and rock&roll eras, I'd guess. If those ideas are valid, then high fashion and high finance has a thrist and a use for the creativity of the street, and this functions in part in preventing the blossoming of an extensive underground. I don't say this in a parnoid way, but in a pattern-observer way.So sending new tech out to the streets and seeing what comes back is a reasonable intentional strategy these days.Just a thought! So Jeff, your book blurb mentions the future of hip hop.What trends are you seeing? 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #47 of 49: Jeff Chang (jeffchang410) Tue 2 Oct 07 20:14

 that's brilliant. i've begun doing a bit of research into, of allthings, sneaker culture. in 1986, run dmc had a hit called 'my adidas'.their manager, a guy named russell simmons, invited adidas officialsto the concert at madison square garden, and when run dmc performed thesong, they asked the crowd to hold their sneakers in the air. thesight of thousands of kids holding their shelltoes above their headsjust floored the adidas reps. run dmc signed a million dollarsponsorship deal in weeks. that, plus spike lee and michael jordanteaming up to push nike, were sort of like carnaby street moments. nowadidas and nike--much less so reebok, which was the #1 company at thetime--actually have high-end designers routinely designing $1000sneakers for the elite fashion boutique market...there's a natural cycle of style that occurs in hip-hop. every 3-5years or so the styles turn over, and it corresponds to the cycle ofstyle in the neighborhoods--which are literally driven by 16 year-olds.when they grow up and move on, the next cohort of folks transforms thestyle--so that over the course of a few years, there's another shiftthat has been completed. it goes to everything from coloring in clothesto slang to musical styles to dances. if you have access to some urban16 year olds, esp in nyc or la or miami, you're seeing and hearing thestyles that will filter out to the malls and the mainstream over thenext two-three years.i think the future is global. i'm doing a big piece right now onm.i.a., a british sri lankan refugee, and how her particular style andpoint-of-view seem to point the way forward. she's been hyped quite abit, perhaps overmuch, but behind her, i hear a large world waiting tomake their mark... 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #48 of 49: David Adam Edelstein (davadam) Wed 3 Oct 07 12:19

 I'd like to thank everyone who participated in what's become a veryinteresting discussion on hip-hop culture and beyond, and especiallyJeff for joining us and Anna for driving the conversation. We're turning our official focus to another topic, but thisconversation doesn't have to end as long as there are questions todiscuss. 

inkwell.vue.308 : Jeff Chang's "Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop"
permalink #49 of 49: looming tricycle menace (anna) Thu 4 Oct 07 15:55

 thank you, Jeff! thank you, David! it was great fun being a part of thisinteresting and invigorating conversation.